The Biden administration is poised to unveil new tariffs on imported Chinese electric vehicles, creating a potential roadblock for Chinese automakers wanting to expand into the American market.
I’m usually against tariffs but in this case it seems like a pretty fair tit for tat to China basically removing the budgetary concerns for their manufacturers that said manufacturer’s international counterparts won’t have.
Subsidizing local production for local markets is fine enough, but exporting products made with an infinite money glitch active is more or less an intentional play at market capture.
And before some sinoboo tries to gatcha me I do also object to examples where the west subsidizes domestic production for international markets.
That $10k Chinese car cost $20k to make. A competitor undercutting the market that much leads to monopolization. When that competitor is being bankrolled by a foreign government it’s potentially even a hostile act.
People have been mad for decades about what Walmart did to retail in the US. Taking steps to prevent that from also happening with the auto industry should be appreciated.
I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.
You can’t make that same car in the United States for anything like the same price. Even ignoring the Chinese Governments heavy subsidies there’s still a massive cost gap due to worker compensation, cost of compliance with safety regulations, cost of compliance with environmental regulations, and a whole host of other things.
The cost of manufacturing in the United States is radically higher than it is in China and that simply isn’t fixable unless you’re going to unwind Union pay deals, remove environmental laws, and reduce safety restrictions.
You cannot have both, so which are you choosing? Are you going to go with your wallet like a self absorbed capitalist or are you going to support union workers, stronger environmental laws, and more worker safety?
This is what I try to tell people who just want the cheapest things possible. We’re voting with our dollars what kind of world we want.
Also, shipping things across the sea burns some of the worst fuel for the environment so I’d rather buy things made here and support the local economy whenever possible.
Love seeing people spread awareness of bunker fuel. It’s absolutely terrible and would be illegal if humans were rational and wanted to survive as a species
This is what I try to tell people who just want the cheapest things possible. We’re voting with our dollars what kind of world we want.
Ok, please tell me where can I buy that’s wasn’t totally or partially made in China??
I’m an avid learner and DIY, I try to only buy raw materials and tools to make everything I can myself … I have yet to see standard basic tools that were not made in China…
I understand your point, but to expect that “voting with your wallet” will cause change, is like hoping we can turn around a cruise ship by blowing at it
Just look at the enshitification of everything… Did people vote that in with their wallets? Or all services decided that on greed and left us no choice but to hold our noses or give up the last few vestiges of entertainment that we could still afford?
I think most people will choose what they can actually afford. The fact that things cost so much and people aren’t being paid anywhere near enough to compensate for the skyrocketing price of consumer goods, including vehicles.
Whatever the reasons, there is a very serious and dangerous disconnect between the prices of American goods and the spending power of the average American. Unless we do something about that - and I do not mean short-sighted, punitive, protectionist measures like tariffs - China is going to drink our milkshake.
Maybe the problem is our lifestyles. I’m unaware of any long term studies suggesting that in a situation in which the population increases and the resources and land are fixed, that it gets cheaper for anyone wanting anything.
Everyone talks about how shitty the environment is and that we’re going to get burned alive in our lifetime…but at the same time, fuck the environment if it means cheap goods.
Here’s some fun math. Burning a gallon of gas emits 8,887g of CO2. Let’s call it 8.9kg. 1000kgs in a tonne. That means 112 gallons emits a tonne of CO2.
With me so far?
It costs around $500 to remove a tonne of CO2 from the atmosphere.
People act like $3/gal for gas is too much. I say, it’s nowhere near high enough. Gas has to cost $4.46/gal just to cover cleaning up the CO2 emitted from it. That’s just cleanup.
Maybe if we had to pay the cost for our lifestyle, we’d readdress what we actually need. Instead, we have government subsidized global destruction. All of the EV/renewable tax rebates are great (as long as you can use them)…but it’s nothing compared to what oil gets.
Mexico is just across the boarder, and US car makers already make their stuff there to save cash. Mexico has a pretty low unemployment rate right now, so pushing even more labor demand their way would help improve a lot of peoples’ lives by lifting salaries.
But a lot of the cost is in battery manufacturing, not assembly. We need to experiment with sodium-ion batteries to bring those costs down for economy-class cars, just like China is. Maybe $10k is too little, but $15-20k should be feasible for a very basic car.
Yup, and I’m looking at them. But it’s important to point out that they’re not really discontinued, Chevy said they’re planning to upgrade the battery packs and relaunch, but they’re currently focusing on other car offerings. So I’m guessing it’ll relaunch in a year or two.
Sure we will take the sacrifice… I’m sure this time capitalist will get the message and start behaving reasonably
It’s like that time thousands of us reduced or eliminated meat intake and suddenly the Kardashians realized taking private jet flight to avoid a few minutes of traffic was bad and stopped doing it
While I can’t say any of this is wrong, you’re missing likely the single biggest component inflating the cost of US manufacturing: profit margins. Every step of the supply chain has a profit margin attached. Sometimes just a few percent, but often double digits. These compound, so a 5% margin on a simple component will see an additional 15% when sold as part of an assembly, which is then marked up another 20% when sold as part of the finished good. There’s also financialization which burdens US companies. Companies generally need to take loans to fund their operations, and end up having to pay heavy interest fees and rent which also drives up cost. Workers and environmental protections are more expensive, but in practice they are relatively minor compared to a lot of other inefficiencies US industry struggles with.
Doesn’t the USA have much higher wealth inequality than China’s? If so, is that not the result of corruption? If not, so you consider the visible symptoms of it?
I was born into a car centric society. So much so they design the places we live around them. Including dense residential far away from employment that requires transportation. Chop all attempts at decent public transit and now you have created a market of completely artificial demand. Which the law says cars must become more expensive. I have to have a car because of the awful design choices made by unqualified politicians past. Fuck the auto industry. They could have been out saviors by being the example of what union companies do but instead chose violence.
It’s not the capitalist auto companies who are going to get hurt though. The price advantage of the Chinese companies comes from low labor costs and government subsidies, so the auto companies will just move there production to whatever country offers the most subsidies and least labor costs because in our current globalized world capital can move freely.
The real losers will be the unionized auto workers who’ll be abandoned while capitalists maintain or even increase there profits in the third world. These sorts of race to the bottom always harm workers, whether it be with clothes and shein , or EVs.
No ethical way to spend in a capitalist society. It kind of is what it is, cause I gotta eat. Also certified “you criticize capitalism yet you live in it moment” to you sir.
Where I was going was: effects can be different even if all choices and results are unethical. If one cares about the possible impacts of ones actions, consideration beyond “well it’s all unethical, so whatever” could be warranted.
My guess that the prior comment either reflects an assumption that non western capitalists are somehow better than western capitalists or that China’s capitalists aren’t a capitalist class.
I’m usually against tariffs but in this case it seems like a pretty fair tit for tat to China basically removing the budgetary concerns for their manufacturers that said manufacturer’s international counterparts won’t have.
Subsidizing local production for local markets is fine enough, but exporting products made with an infinite money glitch active is more or less an intentional play at market capture.
And before some sinoboo tries to gatcha me I do also object to examples where the west subsidizes domestic production for international markets.
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That $10k Chinese car cost $20k to make. A competitor undercutting the market that much leads to monopolization. When that competitor is being bankrolled by a foreign government it’s potentially even a hostile act.
People have been mad for decades about what Walmart did to retail in the US. Taking steps to prevent that from also happening with the auto industry should be appreciated.
And the government stepped in and addressed the situation, right? Right?
They fucking should have. I’m not gonna give China a pass just because Walmart got one.
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You’re going to be waiting a long time to get reliable numbers out of the CCP.
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They won’t because part of it is slave labor.
[citation needed]
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Sure dumbass. Way to discount all the labor wins the UAW has fought for recently.
Say that again but to a UAW union boss.
You can’t make that same car in the United States for anything like the same price. Even ignoring the Chinese Governments heavy subsidies there’s still a massive cost gap due to worker compensation, cost of compliance with safety regulations, cost of compliance with environmental regulations, and a whole host of other things.
The cost of manufacturing in the United States is radically higher than it is in China and that simply isn’t fixable unless you’re going to unwind Union pay deals, remove environmental laws, and reduce safety restrictions.
You cannot have both, so which are you choosing? Are you going to go with your wallet like a self absorbed capitalist or are you going to support union workers, stronger environmental laws, and more worker safety?
This is what I try to tell people who just want the cheapest things possible. We’re voting with our dollars what kind of world we want.
Also, shipping things across the sea burns some of the worst fuel for the environment so I’d rather buy things made here and support the local economy whenever possible.
Love seeing people spread awareness of bunker fuel. It’s absolutely terrible and would be illegal if humans were rational and wanted to survive as a species
A single large ship burning that shit pollutes as much as many millions of cars.
Ok, please tell me where can I buy that’s wasn’t totally or partially made in China??
I’m an avid learner and DIY, I try to only buy raw materials and tools to make everything I can myself … I have yet to see standard basic tools that were not made in China…
I understand your point, but to expect that “voting with your wallet” will cause change, is like hoping we can turn around a cruise ship by blowing at it
Just look at the enshitification of everything… Did people vote that in with their wallets? Or all services decided that on greed and left us no choice but to hold our noses or give up the last few vestiges of entertainment that we could still afford?
I think most people will choose what they can actually afford. The fact that things cost so much and people aren’t being paid anywhere near enough to compensate for the skyrocketing price of consumer goods, including vehicles.
Whatever the reasons, there is a very serious and dangerous disconnect between the prices of American goods and the spending power of the average American. Unless we do something about that - and I do not mean short-sighted, punitive, protectionist measures like tariffs - China is going to drink our milkshake.
Maybe the problem is our lifestyles. I’m unaware of any long term studies suggesting that in a situation in which the population increases and the resources and land are fixed, that it gets cheaper for anyone wanting anything.
Have you read Ishmael?
Nope. This just seems patently obvious to any but the dull-witted or anyone whose paycheck depends on denial of some fairly basic facts.
(Edit: the downvotes only prove to me that “Idiocracy” was actually a documentary that fell backwards in time)
Thatsthething.
Everyone talks about how shitty the environment is and that we’re going to get burned alive in our lifetime…but at the same time, fuck the environment if it means cheap goods.
Here’s some fun math. Burning a gallon of gas emits 8,887g of CO2. Let’s call it 8.9kg. 1000kgs in a tonne. That means 112 gallons emits a tonne of CO2.
With me so far?
It costs around $500 to remove a tonne of CO2 from the atmosphere.
People act like $3/gal for gas is too much. I say, it’s nowhere near high enough. Gas has to cost $4.46/gal just to cover cleaning up the CO2 emitted from it. That’s just cleanup.
Maybe if we had to pay the cost for our lifestyle, we’d readdress what we actually need. Instead, we have government subsidized global destruction. All of the EV/renewable tax rebates are great (as long as you can use them)…but it’s nothing compared to what oil gets.
Don’t even get me started on beef.
Mexico is just across the boarder, and US car makers already make their stuff there to save cash. Mexico has a pretty low unemployment rate right now, so pushing even more labor demand their way would help improve a lot of peoples’ lives by lifting salaries.
But a lot of the cost is in battery manufacturing, not assembly. We need to experiment with sodium-ion batteries to bring those costs down for economy-class cars, just like China is. Maybe $10k is too little, but $15-20k should be feasible for a very basic car.
The Bolts were 25,000 before GM discontinued them.
Yup, and I’m looking at them. But it’s important to point out that they’re not really discontinued, Chevy said they’re planning to upgrade the battery packs and relaunch, but they’re currently focusing on other car offerings. So I’m guessing it’ll relaunch in a year or two.
They weren’t meant to come back. It was one of those cases of customers complaining enough.
But why though? They were extremely popular…
Trucks make more money. They were changing the factory to truck production.
You do understand they have to comply with our safety and environmental standards to sell here right?
Sure we will take the sacrifice… I’m sure this time capitalist will get the message and start behaving reasonably
It’s like that time thousands of us reduced or eliminated meat intake and suddenly the Kardashians realized taking private jet flight to avoid a few minutes of traffic was bad and stopped doing it
While I can’t say any of this is wrong, you’re missing likely the single biggest component inflating the cost of US manufacturing: profit margins. Every step of the supply chain has a profit margin attached. Sometimes just a few percent, but often double digits. These compound, so a 5% margin on a simple component will see an additional 15% when sold as part of an assembly, which is then marked up another 20% when sold as part of the finished good. There’s also financialization which burdens US companies. Companies generally need to take loans to fund their operations, and end up having to pay heavy interest fees and rent which also drives up cost. Workers and environmental protections are more expensive, but in practice they are relatively minor compared to a lot of other inefficiencies US industry struggles with.
That’s true in China as well. The only difference is in the price of what is being marked up.
Well, there’s also less corruption and more free competition to lower pricesin the US.
Bless your heart, sweet summer child.
You think there’s more corruption in the US government than the CCP? That China’s market is more free? Give me a break.
Doesn’t the USA have much higher wealth inequality than China’s? If so, is that not the result of corruption? If not, so you consider the visible symptoms of it?
I was born into a car centric society. So much so they design the places we live around them. Including dense residential far away from employment that requires transportation. Chop all attempts at decent public transit and now you have created a market of completely artificial demand. Which the law says cars must become more expensive. I have to have a car because of the awful design choices made by unqualified politicians past. Fuck the auto industry. They could have been out saviors by being the example of what union companies do but instead chose violence.
All Carsalesmen Are Bastards.
Defund the dealerships.
It’s not the capitalist auto companies who are going to get hurt though. The price advantage of the Chinese companies comes from low labor costs and government subsidies, so the auto companies will just move there production to whatever country offers the most subsidies and least labor costs because in our current globalized world capital can move freely.
The real losers will be the unionized auto workers who’ll be abandoned while capitalists maintain or even increase there profits in the third world. These sorts of race to the bottom always harm workers, whether it be with clothes and shein , or EVs.
Ah yes, great way to fuck over our capitalists, by supporting their worse capitalists instead
I mean if we’re being capitalists, that’s how the free market works, right?
US auto makers were like “we love the free market”, then people bought cheaper cars from China and they said “wait, not that free!”
Certified “you criticize capitalism yet you live in it” moment
No ethical way to spend in a capitalist society. It kind of is what it is, cause I gotta eat. Also certified “you criticize capitalism yet you live in it moment” to you sir.
are all unethical choices equal? Surely there are better and worse things?
No but unethical is unethical so I’m not sure where you’re going with this.
Where I was going was: effects can be different even if all choices and results are unethical. If one cares about the possible impacts of ones actions, consideration beyond “well it’s all unethical, so whatever” could be warranted.
“our capitalists”? what does that even mean ?
My guess that the prior comment either reflects an assumption that non western capitalists are somehow better than western capitalists or that China’s capitalists aren’t a capitalist class.
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I prefer the circular solution. Make a tariff equal to the delta, and use the tariff to subsidize local production and reduce the delta.
Now this I can get behind. We should fight back by subsidization of production as heavily as China is theirs.
subsidizing production isnt a bad thing.
it makes for a quicker transition to ev. its only a problem now because china is doing it.
I’m against it but I understand it. Every successful country in the last 500 years has subsidized their foreign facing corporations.
How moral of you to object to the US government doing the same thing.
Can I have a means of transportation I can fucking afford now?
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