Counterpoint: maybe don’t position yourself near an instant death chasm? Or invest more into Athletics/Acrobatics?
Even if we take away Shove, the issue is still present with Thunderclap - make a single DC save from a 1st-level spell or be pushed into an instant death chasm.
Thunderclap requires a spell slot and isn’t a bonus action. Part of the problem is that every enemy gets to do their full attack, and then go ahead and try a shove just to see if it works for funsies.
If shoves work to the way that they do in d&d, then an enemy going for a shove and failing would mean that they had done nothing on their turn and that you would be net-positive on the round. That doesn’t happen in this game because they get to have their cake and eat it too by getting to make an attack and a shove in the same turn.
Ah, I see. Yeah, Shove being a bonus action is a bit ridiculous - it should’ve been an action from the start since it’s an insanely easy get-out-of-jail-free card. Honestly wouldn’t mind a book implementation of 5e Shove being a normal action, and then just have the game’s current Shove be a “Forceful Shove” or something that takes up both normal and bonus actions.
That being said, the problem the other dude brings up is basically solved with trying to stay in a better position. If you’re gonna fight near a chasm or a very high-up walkway, you should expect to get shoved or pushed off somehow.
The problem is a matter of numbers. If every enemy is trying to shove me off a cliff, they shouldn’t also be able to do damage.
Regardless of that though, your last sentence seems to be implying that the player should have just not positioned themselves that way, but I regret to inform you that there are a lot of fights where you don’t control everyone on your side. I save-scummed a fight three times because my ally spent his first turn every single time running straight into combat and standing on a peninsula surrounded on three sides by lava.
People literally beeline my casters and shove them every fight that I don’t stack them behind front-liners. Maybe it’s a difficulty thing?
It’s also super fight-dependent because the only reason to use shove is if you can push someone into something. If it’s just a fight in an open field there’s no use.
Though it is a super easy way to just try to get away free from a AoO from a melee person in range. The action economy is supposed to be “if I don’t want to take an AoO and can’t teleport, then I have to Disengage and that’s my action”, but now they can try a shove for “free” and if it works they can move freely and still attack.
That’s a great comparison because thunderclap is more difficult to use than the shove, first being a spell save and second being a full action.
Plenty of fights where it is unavoidable, but as I mentioned in the previous comment, it’s completely different to how it works in DnD and makes some fights a joke if you push an enemy to their death or just causes frustration if one of your spellcasters is shoved to death on the first turn.
Basically turns most fights in areas with chasms into shoving matches which means you ignore the actual mechanics of the fight to just shove and avoid being shoved. It’s sucks.
Yeah, totally glossed over the bit where you were focusing on Shove being a bonus action and causing some wacky balance. Thought it was moreso the fact that it’s even a mechanic in the first place.
I mean, while it was hilarious I could shove all three bosses in the Goblin Camp into chasms before they aggro’d me, it is broken in that A) you can shove non-hostile NPCs indefinitely with no repercussions, and B) you can do a full attack and always Shove in a single turn, which has huge benefits for characters with high STR.
Counterpoint: maybe don’t position yourself near an instant death chasm? Or invest more into Athletics/Acrobatics?
Even if we take away Shove, the issue is still present with Thunderclap - make a single DC save from a 1st-level spell or be pushed into an instant death chasm.
Thunderclap requires a spell slot and isn’t a bonus action. Part of the problem is that every enemy gets to do their full attack, and then go ahead and try a shove just to see if it works for funsies.
If shoves work to the way that they do in d&d, then an enemy going for a shove and failing would mean that they had done nothing on their turn and that you would be net-positive on the round. That doesn’t happen in this game because they get to have their cake and eat it too by getting to make an attack and a shove in the same turn.
Ah, I see. Yeah, Shove being a bonus action is a bit ridiculous - it should’ve been an action from the start since it’s an insanely easy get-out-of-jail-free card. Honestly wouldn’t mind a book implementation of 5e Shove being a normal action, and then just have the game’s current Shove be a “Forceful Shove” or something that takes up both normal and bonus actions.
That being said, the problem the other dude brings up is basically solved with trying to stay in a better position. If you’re gonna fight near a chasm or a very high-up walkway, you should expect to get shoved or pushed off somehow.
The problem is a matter of numbers. If every enemy is trying to shove me off a cliff, they shouldn’t also be able to do damage.
Regardless of that though, your last sentence seems to be implying that the player should have just not positioned themselves that way, but I regret to inform you that there are a lot of fights where you don’t control everyone on your side. I save-scummed a fight three times because my ally spent his first turn every single time running straight into combat and standing on a peninsula surrounded on three sides by lava.
I would say an enemy shoves one of my characters every seven or eight fights. It’s pretty uncommon.
People literally beeline my casters and shove them every fight that I don’t stack them behind front-liners. Maybe it’s a difficulty thing?
It’s also super fight-dependent because the only reason to use shove is if you can push someone into something. If it’s just a fight in an open field there’s no use.
Though it is a super easy way to just try to get away free from a AoO from a melee person in range. The action economy is supposed to be “if I don’t want to take an AoO and can’t teleport, then I have to Disengage and that’s my action”, but now they can try a shove for “free” and if it works they can move freely and still attack.
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That’s a great comparison because thunderclap is more difficult to use than the shove, first being a spell save and second being a full action.
Plenty of fights where it is unavoidable, but as I mentioned in the previous comment, it’s completely different to how it works in DnD and makes some fights a joke if you push an enemy to their death or just causes frustration if one of your spellcasters is shoved to death on the first turn.
Basically turns most fights in areas with chasms into shoving matches which means you ignore the actual mechanics of the fight to just shove and avoid being shoved. It’s sucks.
Yeah, totally glossed over the bit where you were focusing on Shove being a bonus action and causing some wacky balance. Thought it was moreso the fact that it’s even a mechanic in the first place.
I mean, while it was hilarious I could shove all three bosses in the Goblin Camp into chasms before they aggro’d me, it is broken in that A) you can shove non-hostile NPCs indefinitely with no repercussions, and B) you can do a full attack and always Shove in a single turn, which has huge benefits for characters with high STR.