You mean this one? The one that dips down right after October 2023? I can’t imagine what event would have happened in October that would possibly have caused such a massive downturn in the belief that it’s possible to make peace with Palestinians?
Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, because it is a Settler Colonialist Ethnostate founded on, and ever continuing, ethnic cleansing
Settlements
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Source
During the current war, Hamas officials have said that the group does not want to return to ruling Gaza and that it advocates for forming a government of technocrats to be agreed upon by the various Palestinian factions. That government would then prepare for elections in Gaza and the West Bank, with the intention of forming a unified government.
Hamas officials should be held accountable for all war crimes committed, same as all Israeli officials. That said, there are many parallels between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Gaza.
The Peace Index is a survey project that’s conducted every 3 (???) months. Click on “see the latest survey” then on “findings” and you’ll see what I mean. I’d love to quote specific numbers but it won’t open on my device for some reason. Anyway numbers like how many Israelis think the Israeli military response to October 7 is justified and how many think its scale is just about right or too low are particularly damning, but you should go through the whole thing.
I’ll just include the top two points - they’re the most relevant.
An overwhelming majority of the Palestinians (81%) think the Palestinian suffering under the siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip justifies what Hamas did on October 7; only 28% of Israeli Arabs take this view. Among Israeli Jews, 84% believe Hamas’ attack on October 7 justifies current Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip.
We asked how Israelis interpreted Palestinian aims on October 7 and in the ensuing war. The vast majority of Israeli Jews (93%) attribute maximalist and genocidal aspirations to the Palestinians’ aim: 66% select “to commit genocide against us,” and 27% believe the aim is to conquer land and expel the Jews. When Palestinians were asked how they interpret Israel’s aim in the current war, again, a vast majority of Palestinians (88%) attribute maximalist and genocidal aspirations to Israel: 61% select “commit genocide against us,” and 27% select “to conquer our land and expel the people.”
I went through it - it’s pretty fucking bleak which makes it even more important to avoid confirming the persecution bias on both sides
There’s actually more if you click on “findings” or “sample report” at the bottom of the page, but you get the idea now. The former gets you to the actual survey results.
Before I continue I’ll make it clear: I’m not trying to advocate for “push them into the sea” rhetoric or saying that peace is impossible, and I certainly don’t think atrocities committed on either side are justified. That said, we need to understand the situation without any illusions or overoptimism before we can start discussing solutions.
it’s pretty fucking bleak which makes it even more important to avoid confirming the persecution bias on both sides
True to a degree, but it also shows that “the majority of Israelis support genocide in Palestine” is a proven fact. From these results we know that, for example, ideas along the lines of “this is completely or mostly Netanyahu’s fault and can’t be used to judge the Israeli public” are wrong, because unfortunately Netanyahu’s actions in the war are representing Israeli popular will. This means we’ll never get a real solution to this conflict, at least in the next few decades, by leaving Israel to its own devices. More heavy handed measures, a la South Africa, are necessary.
There’s actually more if you click on “findings” or “sample report” at the bottom of the page
Literally what I clicked on to copy out those two points. The rest are more of the same with varying degrees of nuance.
it also shows that “the majority of Israelis support genocide in Palestine” is a proven fact
It very much does not prove that. It says that 81% support current Israeli actions - as viewed by Israelis who very much do not believe there is a genocide going on there. If you can’t comprehend the difference between those two statements then there is no conversation or intelligent discussion to be had here.
It says that 81% support current Israeli actions - as viewed by Israelis who very much do not believe there is a genocide going on there.
They’re definitely aware of the situation in Gaza (and now the West Bank) to a degree, though with a healthy dose of propaganda; they just don’t consider it genocide.
The genocide supported by the overwhelming majority of Israelis.
I mean what I said, the majority of Israelis support the states genocidal “war”. The only large complaint they’ve ever had was “He’s not doing enough to reduce to the hostages”.
Look up the index of peace by Tel Aviv University. It is an overwhelming majority; even opposition voters support the genocide.
You mean this one? The one that dips down right after October 2023? I can’t imagine what event would have happened in October that would possibly have caused such a massive downturn in the belief that it’s possible to make peace with Palestinians?
Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, because it is a Settler Colonialist Ethnostate founded on, and ever continuing, ethnic cleansing
Settlements
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
One or Two State Solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Source
Hamas officials should be held accountable for all war crimes committed, same as all Israeli officials. That said, there are many parallels between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Gaza.
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
Did you really spend 44 minutes typing all that up? Or is this another one of your copypasta comments?
The Peace Index is a survey project that’s conducted every 3 (???) months. Click on “see the latest survey” then on “findings” and you’ll see what I mean. I’d love to quote specific numbers but it won’t open on my device for some reason. Anyway numbers like how many Israelis think the Israeli military response to October 7 is justified and how many think its scale is just about right or too low are particularly damning, but you should go through the whole thing.
I’ll just include the top two points - they’re the most relevant.
I went through it - it’s pretty fucking bleak which makes it even more important to avoid confirming the persecution bias on both sides
There’s actually more if you click on “findings” or “sample report” at the bottom of the page, but you get the idea now. The former gets you to the actual survey results.
Before I continue I’ll make it clear: I’m not trying to advocate for “push them into the sea” rhetoric or saying that peace is impossible, and I certainly don’t think atrocities committed on either side are justified. That said, we need to understand the situation without any illusions or overoptimism before we can start discussing solutions.
True to a degree, but it also shows that “the majority of Israelis support genocide in Palestine” is a proven fact. From these results we know that, for example, ideas along the lines of “this is completely or mostly Netanyahu’s fault and can’t be used to judge the Israeli public” are wrong, because unfortunately Netanyahu’s actions in the war are representing Israeli popular will. This means we’ll never get a real solution to this conflict, at least in the next few decades, by leaving Israel to its own devices. More heavy handed measures, a la South Africa, are necessary.
Literally what I clicked on to copy out those two points. The rest are more of the same with varying degrees of nuance.
It very much does not prove that. It says that 81% support current Israeli actions - as viewed by Israelis who very much do not believe there is a genocide going on there. If you can’t comprehend the difference between those two statements then there is no conversation or intelligent discussion to be had here.
They’re definitely aware of the situation in Gaza (and now the West Bank) to a degree, though with a healthy dose of propaganda; they just don’t consider it genocide.
I didn’t say Likud was supported by the majority.
Define what you meant, then. The coalition is marginally above half of votes cast.
I mean what I said, the majority of Israelis support the states genocidal “war”. The only large complaint they’ve ever had was “He’s not doing enough to reduce to the hostages”.
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